Rapid Shot and ManyShot works together Hard Evidence Request

edited December 2018 in d20PFSRD
Some people in my party says that Rapid shot and manyshot cannot work together. I got on Reddit they said it works together. 2/5 of my party says rapid shot is a prerequisite of manyshot so they cant work together. I showed them Cleave and greater cleave and them stating out that they can't work together. Then I also show Weapon focus and greater weapon focus which is stated that it works together. Then they said that Manyshot is a better version of Rapid shot so I can't use it together. They said I needed hard evidence to convince them. Thank You very for reading this. Thank You very much if you help me. Just Thank You for wasting some of your time for me.
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  • I'd say yes, you can use them together. Unfortunately, there doesn't appear to be any hard evidence for this, though. I'll explain why you can use them together, and you'll have to convince your GM that it makes sense.

    Typically, when a combat feat is associated with a type of action (move, full, standard, etc.), it will specify whether it replaces the action or happens alongside the action.

    If a feat replaces an action, it cannot be used with other feats that rely on that type of action, unless otherwise noted in the description. A good example of this is the "Spring Attack" feat, which replaces and is used as a full-round action. No other actions or feats can be used with this feat. It is a requirement from the "Spring-Heeled Style", however, which enhances your attacks made during a "Spring Attack". The wording is very clear: "As a full-round action, you can do this".

    On the other hand, if a feat is used alongside an action, it seems to be simply considered a bonus that occurs whenever you take that type of action. The wording for both "Rapid Shot" and "Manyshot" show that they of the alongside category. "When you make a full-attack with a ranged weapon, this happens". Since both are used alongside a full-attack option, both can be activated independently when a ranged full-attack is used.

    If anyone can think of a reason why this isn't true, let me know.
  • edited January 24
    If you want to find more feats to use as examples to convince your DM, do a search on the d20pfsrd page for a type of action (move action, for example), then select the "Feats" filter. It should give you a good list of feats that either replace or happen alongside move actions.

    Also, the excuse that "manyshot is a better version of rapid shot" is not valid. They are completely different feats. Rapid Shot allows you to fire an extra arrow as a completely separate attack. Manyshot fires two arrows as part of your first attack, and both arrows are considered the same attack

    As a result, if an enemy used "Deflect Arrows" they'd still get hit by Rapid Shot's second arrow, but would completely deflect both arrows from Manyshot. In this situation, Rapid Shot would definitely be better, but that doesn't prevent you from using both feats if you want to. One may be a requirement for the other, but their base mechanics are completely different.
  • NO rapid and many don't work together. Rapid requires using the Full Attack action being used and Many is a standard. To clairify: Rapid doesn't make the action 'become' full round or full attack, it must be used with the full attack action which is a full round. Also, and this could become very important and contensious, you can't 'Choose'  to use Manyshot as a full attack action and thus add the Rapidshot. Even though you could argue a standard action takes a smaller amount of time then the full attack action, the term Standard is part of Manyshot's description, it is a rule, it cannot just be substituted anymore then argueing that since a standard action could be substituted for another move action (hence double move action) that the standard is no more time then a move action and therefore any standard action could fit into a move action time and therefore allow you to take a double standard action. More concisely: Use Rapid if you don't need to move, Many if you do (all else being the same).
  • edited July 18
    This popped up in a game I am in. I think the confusion comes from 3.5 rules said many shot was a standard action. Pathfinder feats read manyshot and rapid shot are both part of a full round action. With that wording I dont see how they would not unless the DM just rules that it doesn't.

    Here is a paizo thread from 2009.
    https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2jvlz?Rapid-shot-and-manyshot

    D20pfsrd manyshot
    https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/manyshot-combat/
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