The sadistic Necromancer
I am working on a full build (level 20) for a necromancer and need some suggestions. Using pathfinder 1e and anything on the pazio website.
I had an idea to build a necromancer who raises, or invokes their enemies dead loved ones. He enjoys watching their pain as they try to fight those closest to them. I am not sure if he should be a full necromancer or use some illusions to make them think that they really are fighting their loved ones.
Race is elf (open to negotiations) and using a high point buy system.
I had an idea to build a necromancer who raises, or invokes their enemies dead loved ones. He enjoys watching their pain as they try to fight those closest to them. I am not sure if he should be a full necromancer or use some illusions to make them think that they really are fighting their loved ones.
Race is elf (open to negotiations) and using a high point buy system.
Comments
I figured all of his other spells might center around debuffing his enemies as a way to weaken them and make them more susceptible to his illusions of mind-altering spells.
I'm just not as familiar with the different spells, classes, and archetypes that are out there, as others might be. And I was wondering what others thought might work as a solid fighting style for a PC.
Why do "serious behind the scenes work" to find dead loved ones ? It's kinda easy to *create* newly-dead loved ones, isn't it ? Just ambush the child returning from school, the wife coming back from the market, the husband coming back from work (or from a hunt). You can even poison the dog, choke the house cat... Be creative !
If they have bodyguards, prepare ghouls or whatever, a bunch of disposable corpses. You might also hire a few mercenaries (or, cheaper, catspaws and other low-key villainous figures) to help you in your evil endeavours. Just make sure they do NOT backstab you first, obviously - killing them once they've outlived their usefulness works, but you might get a bad rep after this, and find it difficult to hire more the next time. So, you might want to make them fear you enough to keep them docile, while still rewarding them for their work, in order to keep that "villain boss" vibe. Street cred, bro.
So, yeah, if you have to be evil, do it right. Scheme, plot, murder, bathe in the tears of your enemies, stomp in the puddles of their blood, dance with their corpses (which you'll have reanimated to become your servants, or merely to prevent them from decaying too much as you abuse them regularly), whatever floats your boat.
Now I'm wondering what the easiest way for this character to kill would be? Use other spells to help slay his enemies, or maybe wield a weapon that he could use to take them by surprise? Poison could work too. I will have to familiarize myself with the rules for that though.
Are there any archetype s that really lead themselves to the necromancer idea?
Or you might make a profane spellcaster, too, mages can become great necromancers.
As to how to kill people, there are sooo many ways... where to begin ? You can obviously overpower them, kill them with spells, and the like, but why stop at the obvious ?
Poison is your friend, here. Traps, too. You could even offer your "help" to adventurers (as a caster in a party, or as a healer after you find them broken, battered, and nearly dead). Sneak in a house and slit a throat (or ten), assassin-style. Order flunkies to bring them to you, mob-boss-style. Or order undead flunkies to bring them to you, necromancer-style.
Now, obviously, if you want to SURVIVE as a necromancer, I'd suggest maxing your Bluff skill, and possibly the Disguise skill too. Try and make yourself pass for something you're not (like, a NICE guy, or at least a non-threatening one). If you get undead guardians, try and make it not too obvious. Skeletons or zombies following you everywhere tends to mark you as evil...
You could, alternatively, try and make it obvious that you wield dead tools - err, creatures, and then make it *seem* like you help people with them. But, even if you look nice, you might still get hunted - after all, servants of Pharasma, and/or good deities, probably won't care what you pretend to do with your servants. Merely having them might warrant death, to their eyes.
So, yeah, I'd advise treading carefully, covering your tracks, NOT killing too many people in the same place, not being too obvious, etc. But everything will depend on how your DM and your party see things, too.
Remember, too, that you'll need onyx. 50 gold per Hit Die, so better loot people first.
I'm sure if you think of ways to be inconspicuous, you'll do pretty fine. Just keep in mind that magic can detect non-neutral alignments, so try and find ways to deal with that (either avoiding such magics, or getting artifacts and/or spells to mask your real alignment)
Then, I see it's a half-BAB class. Not a problem per se, but it won't be good at attacking (not that an oracle is that good, either, mind you, but oracles are 3/4 BAB).
It has a D8 for HD, which is as good as oracles, and it is also a charisma-based divine spellcaster.
I also like the "charnel touch" ability, which seems to become quite powerful as a debuff. It's a melee touch attack, so it shouldn't be too hard to hit, most of the time, but remember that it's an attack without a weapon, which means that it won't have bonuses to hit from a magical weapon. And with a half-BAB class, some agile opponents will likely be impossible to hit, other than with a natural 20, so you shouldn't count on it too much.
However, you'll have a "spectral hand" from level 4th onward, letting you perform these attacks at a distance, and with a +2 bonus.
I love the Necromantic Epiphany (lv20), it IS a great boon. Also, if you take a half-orc, you can use all your favored class bonuses to get 3/4 BAB instead of half-bab. Seeing how the charnel touch is a nice attack, it could be worth it - if you do not plan on raining other deadly spells on your enemies, that is.
Now, as far as the spells go, a Necromancer is waaaaay more limited than an oracle. It has very few spells, without any bonus from his charisma, and even though it is said that it can learn spells from other sources, it's not very well described, so I guess you'd have to get your DM's green light on a per-case basis.
Also, it doesn't say that it's a spontaneous spellcaster. If the necromancer is a prepared caster, I'd say this is a huge minus for it.
All in all, I'd say the Necromancer class looks interesting, and could be worth a try, but I don't think it would be "better" than a priest or oracle. Merely different.
I'd advise you to work with the Skeleton and Zombie archetypes to create powerful, mindless undead slaves. Mostly with the Bloody Skeleton (because very hard to kill, and more powerful than a basic skeleton) or the Fast Zombie (because much better than the useless basic version). Using the bloody skeletons, I didn't find any interest in "higher" undead. I currently have a Bloody Skeleton of a Cold Rider, whose racial 13HD and unarmed attacks made into a very useful servant - It is still moderately useful now, and I'm level 15), and a Bloody Skeleton of a Gorynych, whose 3 heads make for some mayhem. Sure, it is bulky, but you can always break it to small pieces to fit it through a small hole, and wait for an hour for it to heal back into shape.
I'm sure you can find even better ways of using corpses for personal gain
From what I read it is a spontaneous caster, just worded a little strange. The spell list limited, but I do think the GM will allow some case-by-case spells. (the GM is me, lol) I am working on a very unique campaign, and need to create some very unique characters that may interact with the party without giving away what they are doing.
As for other feats, honestly, I'm not a good optimizer in Pathfinder. I really didn't read the whole list enough to be of use here.
- Conceal Spell could be an interesting "joker", but as a last resort (if confronted by not-yet-sure PCs), OR in the middle of a crowd (casting a debuff on them right before "unexpected" undead crash the party, for instance, while all the town's important people are there, along with the PCs - now, THAT's a nice occasion for mayhem. And who's to say the necromancer wanted only Mrs Foo dead, if she's among a score of victims ?). But, at the very least, PCs would *know* that the culprit isn't among the people here, right ? They would have noticed if one of them had cast a spell, right ? Right...
- Convincing Persona, if your necromancer wants to play reverse Zorro. That is, move with a blood-curdling disguise, a mask, and the like, performing dastardly acts, then fleeing, and blending in the crowd again later, as his real identity this time.
I honestly don't want to browse the whole list, so I'll stop here, but I'm sure you'll manage, especially if you know it better than I do - which I don't doubt, as you'll be the DM ^^
Consider giving your villainous Necromancer a high bluff score, and possibly magic items to complement it, in order for him NOT to betray himself due to an unfortunate fumbled roll. Also, maybe give him some items able to counter alignment detection (maybe only a certain number of times, or maybe on a X uses per day basis, whether active or "passively reacting"). This way, it shouldn't be overpowered if the PCs use it later on, but it would be a shame if a paladin were to undo all your hard work by pinpointing THE only chaotic evil guy in the room.
Or consider making it so that a lot of people have corpses in their closets (as a figure of speech, obviously - wait...), having a nice mix of all alignments (after all, you can have loyal evil rich exploiters, in a city's elite, just like you could find a lot of people despising law and order, not always for evil purposes). In fact, you could have your necromancer not be chaotic at all, he might even be following a complex honor code. Maybe "Do Unto Your Enemy As He Did To You, Tenfold", or such thing. Maybe he only murders between 11pm and 1am, because only scum does so at other times, or whatever...
Of course, there could be a jeweler creating nice adornments out of it, with a conveniently-easy-to-break-in storage room, nearby. Or there could items made of the stuff (the black stones for Go games, manufactured nearby), stone mosaics, whatever... But remember that if he has no good reason to have it, it might be suspicious.
Let us know how it went afterwards, ok ?
Oh, and for Selective Channel, I'm not sure why you would bother. I mean, for Positive Energy, it's important, sure. But why select only some people to harm, if you can harm everybody ? Of course, if you're living, you might want to "opt out" of the self-damage, but that's about it.
And if it's to heal undead, unless the PCs use undead too, there is no harm in channeling indiscriminately.
Quicken spell is always useful, if you have a higher slot which you don't plan on using. However, I'd use it only as a last resort, as the villain should work from the shadows, and not confront the PCs (unless forced to, obviously). If the Necromancer is indeed a spontaneous spellcaster, then you can decide on the spot if you need to burn a higher-level slot for a quick effect...
I really like where this is going so far. A secret villain masquerading as a hero, using spells and sleight of hand to cover his tracks, setting up a zombie to be the "real bad guy" and then ambushing the PC when they go to confront the final boss. Or if I make him be a bit more chaotic, maybe he is just doing it to mess with the PCs and really wants to see the world burn. Whatever the case ends up being, I love how the character is going to have to be super sneaking to pull it all off.
for the selective channel, I was thinking of using it to 'help' the party fight off bad guys, but if every time I attacked the enemies, the players are also hurt? Might give away that he isn't there to help.
I may have bitten off more than I was ready for, for this campaign, but it may turn out to be a very interesting one if I can get it all to work out right.
And there wouldn't be any magical effects, either. I mean, a Spellcraft check would tell them that there is no magic, and, honestly, even the observation would let people see quite easily that you're not opening a magical rift to pull the creature through, but opening a magical bag. Also, I'm not sure what a "dispel magic" would do. On a summon, it would remove the summoned unit, because the spell keeping it here would be destroyed. On a "permanent" undead, would it work at all ? If so, I think that it would remove the magic keeping the body moving, but the body would fall on the floor. So, the difference will be obvious.
I think you may be right where this character will be better if he stayed behind the scenes and only interacted with the players occasionally as he pesters them. An oracle, priest, or even a cleric of the dead would have an easier time explaining why they had undead at their command. Plus they would have a larger selection of spells to choose from in order to hide their true colors when they are with the party.
This is an interesting set up that I think I will use, but maybe as my BBEG when the party gets farther into the storyline. In the meantime, I might use one of the other options to have a minion or follower of the BBEG infiltrate the party and correspond with the BBEG about the party's movements. They would blend in better. The question then becomes, will the party be able to sway the minion into betraying the BBEG. if that happens, that might give the party a little too much information early on, and if the BBEG loses contact with the minion, it would tip him off that the party is on to him.
All in all, I like where this is going, but if separate my idea into two characters, I need to make sure they either have a very strong bond or their motivations line up perfectly where one won't betray the other. Hmm, there is a lot to consider with this.
The first is to have a very devout believer work for him. Someone worshipping, let's say, Norgorbert, or Zon-Kuthon, would probably rather follow him than some goody-two-shoes who barf rainbows with a 2-feet smile on their faces. I believe that even if the BBEG doesn't follow such a god, his followers wouldn't care that much, as long as his actions are in "accordance" to their own faith.
The second would be to appeal to greed. I mean, if the accomplice is *handsomely* rewarded for helping you, and has no reason to believe he'll be better off betraying you, even an immoral, deloyal minion would think twice before turning his cloak.
The third would be to have some means of pressure against him. If you know where his family lives, and you *protect* them, then unless that person doesn't care about them, he'd probably think twice before risking your wrath. Oh, obviously, they can betray you and hope the heroes save their loved ones before you can harm them, or they can not care at all about them, in the end (which is a risk, when working with truely evil and selfish people - good help is SO hard to come by, nowadays).
And even better than any of the methods given above, would be a combination of several of them. If the servant thinks he's bound by a magic contract, AND does great work for his divinity, AND gets rich in the process... would he really betray you, unless utterly certain doing so would be the only way for him ?
If there was a ritual-like contract, maybe it was done in the presence of the BBEG, or maybe it was done in the presence of a corpse animated by the BBEG, dressed, masked, and enchanted so as to be a believable "master", but merely a magically-controled undead-drone. Or maybe the BBEG was there in person, but masked, and tried to disguise his voice as much as possible. Easier, cheaper, but less secure...
Even if the PCs manage to get such information, will they be able to exploit it ? If they need to "tail" a lone skeleton, or a zombie owl, by night, without being spotted by your Undead Surveillance Drones Array (tm) (yeah, ok, the murder of Isitoq you'd have placed around the location), they'll probably have a hard time doing so undetected.
Plus, never forget that such undead servants are loyal (because mindless), and utterly disposable if needs arises.
So, yeah, that's not to say the PCs shouldn't have any way to get to the BBEG, but it shouldn't be easy. Maybe they'd need to place a "trap" spell on the location, which could attach some kind of tracer on the undead when it comes. Maybe they could scry for that undead's location periodically, after observing it for some time. Maybe they have better stealth than the BBEG's Isitoq can perceive. Or maybe they'll just learn that there is a very CLEVER necromancer operating in these parts (which would be a good information in itself), and have to locate him using other means.
Never underestimate the PCs, and, if your villain isn't meant to be found out too soon, then just don't give the PCs too many reasons to suspect him. I mean, the villain could discuss with them, but do not make it too obvious. He should only be one of many, many NPCs to have interacted with them. Do not give him an overly large "screen time", lest they understand immediately that he's an important character.
What this means is that you should probably not describe him (or not too much, unless specifically asked for by the PCs), and you should have other descriptions for other NPCs ready. Have names ready, at least for those they should be able to find again easily (like the baker, or the guy holding the 2nd inn - which should ALSO be named beforehand). Have some other minor, and innocent, characters repeatedly bump into the PCs. Maybe some of them will look at them with squinted eyes, because of mistrust, or because they fear their not-so-good deeds could be exposed. Maybe some will try to ingratiate themselves to the PCs (because they genuinely want to help, or because of some infatuation, or because they think they can profit from them, whatever...)
In the end, it will be important that the BBEG doesn't stand out too much, compared to the other inhabitants. Sure, if the PCs want to meet him, make him available (at least, reasonably so), make him cordial, possibly eager to help, or possibly gruff if waken in the middle of the night - even if he wasn't sleeping, and was instead interrupted in the middle of plotting his next nefarious plot). Make him appear vulnerable if needed (like, get out of his house to welcome the PCs in his nightgown, with a nightcap), and still accept, though grudgingly, to help them if REALLY needed, and if that cannot wait until the morrow. Make him look like any other member of the community (because the butcher said that he'd help cleave those walking bones if needed, too. Just like the woodcutter said he'd fell them, or whatever).
Also, remember that the BBEG will probably try NOT to keep any incriminating material in his house. Not even in a secret room (because that's usually the downfall of those who think it's WELL hidden - PCs will routinely find all "findable" hidden things, as there will be one or two of them who will have maxed out perception. So, as long as it CAN be found at their level, you should expect it will (and a clever villain should expect it too, hence the not having it at home, even if it is less convenient that way).
I really like what you have suggested. There are many things that I had not considered. And if the BBEG is a Necromancer, he will likely have high intelligence and easily be able to pull off cleverly evil deeds.
What I am thinking now, is that the BBEG and minion has a shared past, maybe mentor and pupil, or simply that the BBEG has provided protection in exchange for the minion's service. Better yet, the minion sought out the BBEG for whatever reason and thus has a greater interest in following the BBEG's commands.
Still this campaign is on going, so I will share how it plays out later on. 😀
Also, I would be remiss not to mention we've recently added several new options to the class as we continue to support it. Including new necromantic studies, and such.
Hope you're enjoying it; it's one of our more popular offerings.
Any tips for optimizing for controlling the most undead or powerful undead?