Rules Question (RAW, not House)

talmerian

I was looking into Disable Device and Thieve's tools. I noticed that in the description of Disable Device two DCs are given to open locks, one for with proper tools and a higher DC without them, generally the DC is +10 without tools. However in the description of Thieve's Tools it says that without them you suffer a -2 penalty to open locks. This ends up being a -12 to open a lock without thieve's tools. Does that seem correct or were there changes to the Skill rules without revisions to the Equipment rules? 

Links to the appropriate pages:

Thieve's Tools
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/goods-and-services/tools-kits/#TOC-Tools-Thieves-

Disable Device
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/disable-device/

gnurro

"Without these tools, you must use improvised tools, and you take a –2 circumstance penalty on Disable Device checks." This means it works just like any other tool-dependant skill. If you try to do anything with an improvised tool you suffer the -2 penalty. If a player tries to do Craft(Calligraphy) with a charred piece of twig, they HAVE to suffer some penalty, so it's set to -2 on checks in the rules.

The +10 on lockpicking without tools is just that: The character tries to open the lock without ANY tools. Only using their fingers. Or teeth, or whatever. Considering the GM has to be able to explain how that worked, I think the +10 to DC is appropriate.

For example: Krirck the kobold rogue finds a nice, locked door, that certainly bars him from glorious riches. He reaches for his trusty lockpicks, but finds that he lost them running away from the guards. Since the door looks too enticing, he starts to scratch at the keyhole, trying to somehow wedge his claws between the tumblers. Which he utterly fails at (simple lock DC 20; +10 to DC for not using tools; ranks: 6; rolls a 12, failing the check by 12). Now he takes the time to look around a little, and finds an old nail lying on the ground nearby. With this and that wavy hair thing he stole from his half-elf "friend", he manages to open the lock on the second attempt (DC 20; rolls 16, -2 improvised tools penalty, ranks: 6; success!).

talmerian

I guess that's a pretty good explanation...just seems weird to attempt a disable device on a lock without any type of tool, improvised or not, thanks for the interpretation!

markt

It's lockpicking vs McGuyvering the lock.

oldraven

There are simple locks which might react to an impact rather than probing of a tool. 

This difference represents your knowledge of manipulating locks rather than your tool use.