Synthesist Problem?

edited March 26 in d20PFSRD
So, I have a puzzle that needs some figurin' out. Before you reply please reserve judgement and objectively try to help. The problem is that I have been playing in an 'Evil' pathfinder game where we are hellbent on global domination, killing of the gods, and smashing reality together in order for existence to stop. This is a very different kind of game than most people play. This game has been going on for a while now and the had been some semblance of party dynamic/player loyaly until now. (Which I guess was to be expected.) We have a player who rarely shows up to play but when they do, the status quo is almost always disrupted and players end up being disgruntled. (Again, in my point-of-view, so far. Totally acceptable.) THIS IS THE PART WHERE ITS A PROBLEM:

The party took over a city and started using Ultimate Campaign and Kingdom building rules. The kingdom has been up and running for the past 6-8 sessions or so. We were sitting atop an evil empire operating on the world scale. This player that occasionally shows up decides they are going to successfully carry out a 'coup' and murder our Matriarch of the city. (Another player in the game) So now its time for revenge. (I mostly have a problem with the fact that this player rarely shows up and now has an important role to fill. Which wont be filled due to random attendance)

TL;DR: Synthesist is broken. Player uses synthesist to murder other player. Teammate wants revenge.

Now, I'm looking for specific ways I can exploit weak spots of synthesist to enact my revenge. I am looking for spells, tactics, anything. That will allow me to put this character behind the game and make this player draw up another class. 

I'll start with what i have found already: 

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/summoner-conduit/

(Would have to get around a godly fort save. but)
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/final-sacrifice/

Comments

  • The summary of this appears to be "evil campaign, player has attendance issues, acts evil when he does show up other players don't like it. Player killed another player to gain power, still has attendance problem, we don't like that so help us kill this player."

    I just... like, this screams "talk to the player about the attendance problem, and remove them if the group doesn't want someone who attends so rarely in the game anymore."

    Killing the character won't solve the actual problem, unless the hope is the player goes away after killing their character. If they don't, they'll just make another one, still have attendance issues, probably do something evil to get power again, and you're back where you started except everyone is more pissed off.

    Out of character table issues need to be solved out of character.

    But if you're intent on doing this anyway, you need to say at a minimum what level you are, what content is available/restricted, and if you already have a character, what your current build is. 
  • edited March 26
    pluddle said:
    Before you reply please reserve judgement and objectively try to help.
    I am intent on doing this anyway due to the player playing a synthesist JUST because its banned and OP. So, as the ol' saying goes: Fight fire with fire. Other members in the party are level 13. DM is allowing alternate characters in the game for the people playing. Each alt will be -1CL from the last. So 12, 11, 10, 9 so on. PLUS we all have Leadership feats, meaning cohorts will be available for levels too. This all being said, nothing 3rd party, all has to be original Pathfinder. 

    Current party: 
    Player 1
    13th level druid/summoner
    13th level sorceror/barbarian 

    Player 2
    13th level magus

    Player 3
    13th level ranger

    Me
    13th level cleric/holy vindicator (me) 
    12th level arcanist (me) 

    1.) Player would never be removed from the group. 
    2.) Player would create another character sure, but being as we RP pretty heavily in our group the new character would have new motivations, points of view etc. 
    3.) Yes its an evil game and this player acted "evil" however, our DM is trying to still progress a story so it has always been a 'gentlemens rule' of being collectively evil. With the gentlemen's rule broken, there is absolutely no reason to behave like one.
    4.) Also wouldnt have minded the player's actions if they didnt insert themselves into a position of power that directly correlates with the narrative of the game. Attendance is pretty much required to drive the narrative of the campaign.
    5.) The way in which the 'coup' was carried out also directly impacts how my character views the synthesist. So negative recourse in game would make sense for my character as far as RP is concerned.
  • edited March 26
    Dismissal or Banishment. An Eidolon can be sent back to its home plane, leaving the Synthesist completely exposed with his probably crap physical stats (since Synth takes on the Eidolon's physicals but keeps their mentals). If the Synth casts Summon Eidolon, bypassing the ritual (since the ritual takes a full minute, unless the Summoner is an elf who took the favored class bonus a lot), you can use Dispel Magic to stop it. In the end, all that's really required is to get rid of the Eidolon. Once that's gone, you can pound him with Fort and Dex save spells, hit him with disease and will-reducing spells. Synths aren't invulnerable. They just require a bit of preparation to take on.
  • Dismissal or Banishment. An Eidolon can be sent back to its home plane, leaving the Synthesist completely exposed with his probably crap physical stats (since Synth takes on the Eidolon's physicals but keeps their mentals). If the Synth casts Summon Eidolon, bypassing the ritual (since the ritual takes a full minute, unless the Summoner is an elf who took the favored class bonus a lot), you can use Dispel Magic to stop it. In the end, all that's really required is to get rid of the Eidolon. Once that's gone, you can pound him with Fort and Dex save spells, hit him with disease and will-reducing spells. Synths aren't invulnerable. They just require a bit of preparation to take on.
    Those spells work on eidolons? I have been doing a bunch of reading and googling. The community seems a bit torn on how this works as far as it goes with the target being an eidolon.
  • pluddle said:
    Dismissal or Banishment. An Eidolon can be sent back to its home plane, leaving the Synthesist completely exposed with his probably crap physical stats (since Synth takes on the Eidolon's physicals but keeps their mentals). If the Synth casts Summon Eidolon, bypassing the ritual (since the ritual takes a full minute, unless the Summoner is an elf who took the favored class bonus a lot), you can use Dispel Magic to stop it. In the end, all that's really required is to get rid of the Eidolon. Once that's gone, you can pound him with Fort and Dex save spells, hit him with disease and will-reducing spells. Synths aren't invulnerable. They just require a bit of preparation to take on.
    Those spells work on eidolons? I have been doing a bunch of reading and googling. The community seems a bit torn on how this works as far as it goes with the target being an eidolon.
    Yes they do. In fact, quote: Spells such as banishment or dismissal work normally on the eidolon, but the synthesist is unaffected. Neither the synthesist nor his eidolon can be targeted separately, as they are fused into one creature. The synthesist and eidolon cannot take separate actions. While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can use all of his own abilities and gear, except for his armor. In all other cases, this ability functions as the summoner’s normal eidolon ability (for example, the synthesist cannot use his summon monster ability while the eidolon is present).
    If you hit the Synth with Ban or Dis, then the eidolon can be sent away, not the summoner himself. And while the eidolon is gone, that's when you gank the crap out of him. Now, you can't use Dispel on the ritually summoned Eidolon (well, you can, but it doesn't send it away), but if it's called by the spell Summon Eidlon, you can, since it counts as a regular summoned creature then.

  • edited March 26
    I'm unsure of EXACTLY his specializations and equipments because I havent looked at his sheet (or cared too especially from an RP point of view) So I'll be stupid and ask this:

    If i banish the synth while the synth has any equipment on itself (not the summoner) if they resummon the synth does it come back with that gear or is it lost to the planes?


    EDIT: further research leaves me to believe the items/gear the eidolon has on would drop to the ground as its banished because the items cant be used in 'the void.' or w/e. Is this correct?
  • pluddle said:
    Dismissal or Banishment. An Eidolon can be sent back to its home plane, leaving the Synthesist completely exposed with his probably crap physical stats (since Synth takes on the Eidolon's physicals but keeps their mentals). If the Synth casts Summon Eidolon, bypassing the ritual (since the ritual takes a full minute, unless the Summoner is an elf who took the favored class bonus a lot), you can use Dispel Magic to stop it. In the end, all that's really required is to get rid of the Eidolon. Once that's gone, you can pound him with Fort and Dex save spells, hit him with disease and will-reducing spells. Synths aren't invulnerable. They just require a bit of preparation to take on.
    Those spells work on eidolons? I have been doing a bunch of reading and googling. The community seems a bit torn on how this works as far as it goes with the target being an eidolon.
    Yes they do. In fact, quote: Spells such as banishment or dismissal work normally on the eidolon, but the synthesist is unaffected. Neither the synthesist nor his eidolon can be targeted separately, as they are fused into one creature. The synthesist and eidolon cannot take separate actions. While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can use all of his own abilities and gear, except for his armor. In all other cases, this ability functions as the summoner’s normal eidolon ability (for example, the synthesist cannot use his summon monster ability while the eidolon is present).
    If you hit the Synth with Ban or Dis, then the eidolon can be sent away, not the summoner himself. And while the eidolon is gone, that's when you gank the crap out of him. Now, you can't use Dispel on the ritually summoned Eidolon (well, you can, but it doesn't send it away), but if it's called by the spell Summon Eidlon, you can, since it counts as a regular summoned creature then.

    BTW, you don't target the eidolon with the spells, because they can't be targeted separately. Think of the Eidolon as a Mage Armor spell. You need to target the person the spell is on, not the spell itself. Since the Synth counts as an outsider, Banishment and Dismissal both find him a valid target, then if the spell works, the Eidolon with sent away.
  • edited March 26
    BTW, you don't target the eidolon with the spells, because they can't be targeted separately. Think of the Eidolon as a Mage Armor spell. You need to target the person the spell is on, not the spell itself. Since the Synth counts as an outsider, Banishment and Dismissal both find him a valid target, then if the spell works, the Eidolon with sent away.
    So then this becomes a battle against the original (not the eidolon's) will save. Which may be more difficult to beat than im anticipating. But this has still been incredibly helpful. Do you know of any other ways to bring one down? I'm starting up my plans for my own 'coup' now haha. 

    ALSO I'm not sure (But randomly remembered this just now) if this helps: 

    As part of an agreement earlier in the game, the synth approached my cleric, and asked If I could make them a shadow demon. (I used false resurection. Under certain conditions) I happily obliged. Now is there any spells or items that work REAL good against a shadow demon? 
  • pluddle said:
    I'm unsure of EXACTLY his specializations and equipments because I havent looked at his sheet (or cared too especially from an RP point of view) So I'll be stupid and ask this:

    If i banish the synth while the synth has any equipment on itself (not the summoner) if they resummon the synth does it come back with that gear or is it lost to the planes?


    EDIT: further research leaves me to believe the items/gear the eidolon has on would drop to the ground as its banished because the items cant be used in 'the void.' or w/e. Is this correct?
    Yes. Anything an eidolon is wearing when it leaves the plane drops to the ground.
  • pluddle said:
    BTW, you don't target the eidolon with the spells, because they can't be targeted separately. Think of the Eidolon as a Mage Armor spell. You need to target the person the spell is on, not the spell itself. Since the Synth counts as an outsider, Banishment and Dismissal both find him a valid target, then if the spell works, the Eidolon with sent away.
    So then this becomes a battle against the original (not the eidolon's) will save. Which may be more difficult to beat than im anticipating. But this has still been incredibly helpful. Do you know of any other ways to bring one down? I'm starting up my plans for my own 'coup' now haha. 

    ALSO I'm not sure (But randomly remembered this just now) if this helps: 

    As part of an agreement earlier in the game, the synth approached my cleric, and asked If I could make them a shadow demon. (I used false resurection. Under certain conditions) I happily obliged. Now is there any spells or items that work REAL good against a shadow demon? 
    Anything that generates bright light. Quote:

    A shadow demon is utterly powerless in bright light or natural sunlight and flees from it. A shadow demon caught in such light cannot attack and can take only a single move or standard action. A shadow demon that is possessing a creature using magic jar is not harmed by sunlight, but if it is struck by a sunbeam or sunburst spell while possessing a creature, the shadow demon is driven out of its host automatically.

    So essentially if you prepare Daylight, you win. And if your statement actually means he's now possessed by a shadow demon, then Sunbeam or Sunburst will force the demon out. If you essentially replaced his soul with a shadow demon, forcing it out will leave him soulless, his body inert. For the Synth, he'd basically be helpless, possibly unconscious, which would send the Eidolon away.


  • pluddle said:
    BTW, you don't target the eidolon with the spells, because they can't be targeted separately. Think of the Eidolon as a Mage Armor spell. You need to target the person the spell is on, not the spell itself. Since the Synth counts as an outsider, Banishment and Dismissal both find him a valid target, then if the spell works, the Eidolon with sent away.
    So then this becomes a battle against the original (not the eidolon's) will save. Which may be more difficult to beat than im anticipating. But this has still been incredibly helpful. Do you know of any other ways to bring one down? I'm starting up my plans for my own 'coup' now haha. 

    ALSO I'm not sure (But randomly remembered this just now) if this helps: 

    As part of an agreement earlier in the game, the synth approached my cleric, and asked If I could make them a shadow demon. (I used false resurection. Under certain conditions) I happily obliged. Now is there any spells or items that work REAL good against a shadow demon? 
    Anything that generates bright light. Quote:

    A shadow demon is utterly powerless in bright light or natural sunlight and flees from it. A shadow demon caught in such light cannot attack and can take only a single move or standard action. A shadow demon that is possessing a creature using magic jar is not harmed by sunlight, but if it is struck by a sunbeam or sunburst spell while possessing a creature, the shadow demon is driven out of its host automatically.

    So essentially if you prepare Daylight, you win. And if your statement actually means he's now possessed by a shadow demon, then Sunbeam or Sunburst will force the demon out. If you essentially replaced his soul with a shadow demon, forcing it out will leave him soulless, his body inert. For the Synth, he'd basically be helpless, possibly unconscious, which would send the Eidolon away.


    Also, Sunbeam has no attack roll, the Reflex save only negates blindness and deals partial damage. Even partial damage will remove the demon. Plus, False Resurrection has a timer of days per level. And anyway, you can get rid of False Resurrection by a simple dispel magic, since you're the one who cast it you don't even need to roll.
  • pluddle said:
    BTW, you don't target the eidolon with the spells, because they can't be targeted separately. Think of the Eidolon as a Mage Armor spell. You need to target the person the spell is on, not the spell itself. Since the Synth counts as an outsider, Banishment and Dismissal both find him a valid target, then if the spell works, the Eidolon with sent away.
    So then this becomes a battle against the original (not the eidolon's) will save. Which may be more difficult to beat than im anticipating. But this has still been incredibly helpful. Do you know of any other ways to bring one down? I'm starting up my plans for my own 'coup' now haha. 

    ALSO I'm not sure (But randomly remembered this just now) if this helps: 

    As part of an agreement earlier in the game, the synth approached my cleric, and asked If I could make them a shadow demon. (I used false resurection. Under certain conditions) I happily obliged. Now is there any spells or items that work REAL good against a shadow demon? 
    Anything that generates bright light. Quote:

    A shadow demon is utterly powerless in bright light or natural sunlight and flees from it. A shadow demon caught in such light cannot attack and can take only a single move or standard action. A shadow demon that is possessing a creature using magic jar is not harmed by sunlight, but if it is struck by a sunbeam or sunburst spell while possessing a creature, the shadow demon is driven out of its host automatically.

    So essentially if you prepare Daylight, you win. And if your statement actually means he's now possessed by a shadow demon, then Sunbeam or Sunburst will force the demon out. If you essentially replaced his soul with a shadow demon, forcing it out will leave him soulless, his body inert. For the Synth, he'd basically be helpless, possibly unconscious, which would send the Eidolon away.


    Also, Sunbeam has no attack roll, the Reflex save only negates blindness and deals partial damage. Even partial damage will remove the demon. Plus, False Resurrection has a timer of days per level. And anyway, you can get rid of False Resurrection by a simple dispel magic, since you're the one who cast it you don't even need to roll.
    Unfortunately, we homebrewed some rules up to get him the shadow demon template onto his character and bypassing the False Resurrection duration. HOWEVER, if I approached this as tho he was just an average shadow demon, my DM would treat the situation as such ignoring his own homebrew. 

    This gives me much to think about. I feel as though going after his shadow demon weaknesses would be much easier than me overcoming his Will save to banish his eidolon. This was the exact out of the box thinking i needed. 
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